Shalom Dirk,

This is a response to your published work entitled, “Hell Know – Eternal Torment or Everlasting Destruction?”

Going forwards, you have anchored, for the most part, your theological dissertation on the assumption that at the Resurrection and Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) (Rev. 20:11), the resurrected body of the ungodly, unredeemed sinner will be thrown into the dreaded eternal Lake of Fire – which is the Second Death (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14; & 21:8).  To this end, you dogmatically conclude the second death of the resurrected sinner, “…is everlasting destruction of both soul and body…” in direct reference to Matt. 10:28.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
²⁸ And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As such, you have boldly defined your theological and eschatological belief in cohesion and agreement with the doctrines of, “…”everlasting destruction”, “literal destruction” or “destructionism” based on 2 Thessalonians 1:9 and numerous other passages…I have no problem being referred to as a “literal destructionist.” I don’t even mind the name “annihilationist” if that’s what people want to call me. I have no problem with these tags because they describe exactly what I believe the Scriptures teach on human damnation. They fittingly describe what I am because I hold to the position that conscious life will ultimately be extinguished when people suffer the second death…We’ve already deduced from Scripture that, literally, the ungodly will be consumed—both soul and body—by (something akin to) raging fire when cast into the lake of fire. This will result in the blackest darkness of all—absolute obliteration and extinction of being” (emphasis added).  Therefore, it is from this published doctrinal belief that I wish to direct my humble personal response.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV)
⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

To reiterate, you define the consequences of the Destruction of the Lake of Fire (Second Death) as, “…People are likened to grass and flowers here, which ultimately wither and die; this is noted in direct contrast to the word of God which stands forever. This is just further evidence of how the Bible describes human nature as decidedly mortal apart from Christ, meaning subject to death and extinction.” (emphasis added)  Moreover, you refine your argument for “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” inflicted upon ungodly sinners at the Great White Throne Judgment resulting in their second death experience in the eternal Lake of Fire by declaring the following:

“Consider it this way, if you jumped into a bonfire, would you not experience conscious suffering for a brief period before losing consciousness and ultimately burning to death? Of course you would. It’s the same principle with the second death when God casts the damned into the lake of fire; the difference being that the period of suffering will be meted out to each individual according to their degree of sinful guilt as divine justice dictates. The period of conscious suffering may last a split second, a few seconds, one minute, an hour, a day, a week, or longer. It all depends on whom we’re talking about. Are we talking about the little old ungodly lady who lives down the street or Adolf Hitler? Hitler is responsible for the horrible suffering and deaths of millions upon millions of people.” (emphasis added)

In response to this claim, words throughout Scripture, both Hebrew and Greek words interpreted as, “destroy”, “destruction”, “perish”, “kill”, and “death”, as they relate to Hell, NEVER mean to go into absolute obliteration or extinction, (absolute nothingness); no not one.

Why can I say this with such authority and confidence?  It is because of the very scientific laws themselves that God (Yeshua) Himself mandated upon ALL His creation that governs the entire universe of His creation. (Jn. 1:3 & Col. 1:6)  In that respect God will never break His own laws.

John 1:3 (KJV)
³ All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 Colossians 1:6 (KJV)
⁶ Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

As stated, it is these laws that govern His entire creation – i.e. the laws of gravity, inertia, motion, thermodynamics, et. al. - laws which are unseen but yet are constant and reliable day after day, year after year.  These laws make life as we know it possible and without them life on this planet could not be possible.  With this in mind I want to bring to your attention the first specific law of thermodynamics and subsequently prove that it is impossible to define destruction of any created “materialistic matter, a presence of existence or being (CONSCIOUSNESS)”, in terms of that insisted upon by the teachings of Annihilationist and Destructionist, et. al. – hence, absolute obliteration and extinction of being. 

Only God has the power to create and destroy – and there are NO instances of evidence in the entire Bible where God has ever DESTROYED any entity to the degree as defined by the Annihilationist and Destructionist. 

Meanwhile, please note that Biblical theology cannot divorce itself from the “true” science of the creation(s) and applicable laws of God - simply to prove some personally held theological hypothesis.  Man did not make the laws of thermodynamics – God did.  Therefore, the first law of thermodynamics which is applied to this argument is as follows:

The First Law of Thermodynamics --- states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but rather can be transformed from one form to another. The amount of energy in the universe remains stagnant, and simply changes into different forms based on certain reactions and occurrences.

With this being said, I feel it is necessary at this point to challenge you to submit one single Scriptural example from the entirety of the Bible that ever directly and literally defines your insisted theological definition of “Destruction” as “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” that does not in and of itself violate God’s first law of thermodynamics.  When God set His laws of creation in order and motion they absolutely guaranteed that none of His created Beings could ever seize the power of absolute destruction (obliteration/extinction) of any of His creation.  Therefore, mankind does NOT have the power of “Creation” nor “Destruction”.  God made this perfectly clear when he declared in Isaiah 66:1 that no one could build Him a house.

Isaiah 66:1 (KJV)
¹ Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Thus, there are some 118 physical elements known to mankind from which all known matter consists and exists.  These 118 known elements are God’s building blocks for the universe and mankind CANNOT create a single one of them even down to the minut neutrino or atom, nor can he “destroy/obliterate them and thereby causing them to become extinct.  As such, just try and construct some entity without using any of God’s formerly created materials - no wind, no earth, no water, no fire – create and use your own materials.  It will not happen.

To this end, if there is NO Scriptural or scientific evidence of a destruction of an “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” by the direct hand of God in this present world of which there is somewhat a known history and construct thereof, be that feeble as it is, then just how can the Annihilationist and Destructionist ever hope to prove and explain an insisted “absolute extinction of being” in a post Millennial (GWTJ) “recreated/redesigned resurrected body” of a sinner thrown into an eternal Lake of Fire – the dreaded eternal second death?  From what materials or elements will these two entities (resurrected body/eternal Lake of Fire) literally consist and what laws of God will govern them?  Will they be like God’s natural elements and laws in place now or will they be something completely different.  If the Annihilationist and Destructionist really know the answer to these ever illusive questions, one would think that they would have long ago widely published their findings of these said laws and construction elements to support their claims.

To make the odious preponderance and analytical comparative claim of exactness between God’s torching to ashes of the sinfully wicked cites of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Peter 2:6) with the suggested incineration to ashes of sinners’ resurrected bodies in the eternal Lake of Fire (second death), is like comparing the planet earth with the planet Saturn – hence, they are comparatively apples and oranges.  Besides, 2 Peter 2:6 clearly uses the greek “hypodeigma” which means “example”.  Whereas, the very definition of example is defined as something “similar” – and similar does not by any means mandate an “exactness” but rather something in resemblance of qualities and likeness.  Thus, God’s burning of the wicked cities and their ungodly inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah is/was intended to serve as a stern warning example to all the ungodly who should persist in their ungodly sins thereafter.  The same can be said of Matt. 24:38 & and 2 Peter 2:5, which were equally warning examples for people not to live ungodly or else they would face God’s unannounced wrath, judgment, and fiery retribution. 

2 Peter 2:6 (KJV)
⁶ And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

In addition, you state the following regarding H. Buis' defense of the 1^st law of thermodynamics as it relates to the “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” of “matter”.

H. Buis pointed out that adherents of everlasting destruction place great emphasis on the fact that the figure of “fire” is used in the Bible to describe the second death, “and fire, they point out, always destroys… But the fact is that when you burn something it is not annihilated, it simply changes form” (Buis 125). I guess what Mr. Buis is trying to say is that when, say, a log is burned up, it technically isn’t wiped out from existence; it turns to smoke vapors and ashes. While this is true, the simple fact is that the log itself is destroyed—it no longer exists. The smoke vapors and ashes are merely the remains of the log. (emphasis added)

You readily admit in your above cited declaration that there is no destructive action in relation to an entity that having “presence and existence” that can result in the “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” – any destructible action merely evokes and effects a change in form of that said entity.  Hence, “RUINED” for all the original purposes for which the now destructed entity was initially created - the entity subsequently considered destroyed, collapsed, or decayed, but NEVER as you surmise absolutely extinct.

You continue your Theological notions as cited below, by revealing that you or no one else actually KNOWS what spiritual materials God formed the soul from, but nonetheless both Annihilationist and Destructionist emphatically and dogmatically insist that it will be ultimately “destroyed” in the second death eternal Lake of Fire to the degree of “absolute obliteration and extinction of being”, by using rudimentary Scriptural passages like 2 Peter 2:6, et. al., as your proof.

“As for the soul, no one knows what spiritual materials God creates a soul from but, whatever they are, when the soul is destroyed it will return to such. The simple fact is that the soul is destroyed, just like the log, regardless of what materials it reverts to after its destruction.” (emphasis added)

Moreover, you continue your theological musings suggesting that when the “soul is destroyed” the breath of life simply returns to God who gave it as stated in Ecclesiastes 12:7.  However, in your deliberate argument you never advance the actual Scriptural evidence that proves a “Soul” can actually be destroyed to the point of absolute extinction.  Thus, you only have a theological hypothetical.  Moreover, there is a decent debate that can be made regarding Ecclesiastes 12:7 actually sustains the viable creditability of suggesting the “Immortality” of the spirit.

Incidentally, in light of the creation text, Genesis 2:7, which says that the soul and body are animated by a “breath of life” from God, some might wonder what happens to this “breath of life” when the soul is destroyed. Well, according to this creation text, it is the breath of life from God that makes the soul “a living soul.” When the soul is destroyed, the breath of life simply returns to God who gave it (see Ecclesiastes 12:7…”).

Going forwards, Lk.16:19-31 would indeed offer credible support for the continued “presence/existence” of the soul post death revealing at the least the natural physical death experience of the mortal body does not necessarily die nor sleep as many Bible theologians readily posit.  Moreover, if Lk. 16:19-31 is merely a parable spoken by Jesus then it is the only parable in all of Scripture that literally uses the names of two historical figures that had actually lived prior to the telling of Jesus.  Hence, Lazarus and Father Abraham respectively.  

Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)
¹⁹ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
²⁰ And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
²¹ And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
²² And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
²³ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
²⁴ And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
²⁵ But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
²⁶ And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
²⁷ Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
²⁸ For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
²⁹ Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
³⁰ And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
³¹ And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Likewise, you advocate that the eternal Lake of Fire was created by God as an exclusive crucible of eternal torments specifically and only for the “Devil and his angels” and not to include any eternal torments for the second death of resurrected sinners.  However, this fails to acknowledge that Matt. 25:41, can also easily and equally be translated as “the Devil and his messengers”.  This language is evidenced by the greek word “angelosis”, which means “sent ones” just as Albert Barnes’ published in his “Notes on the Whole Bible”, 14 vols.  He suggests, that these fallen angelosis messengers extend to and include those unrepentant ones that lived/lives according to Satan’s ways (Jn. 8:44; 10:10; 2 Peter 2:9; and Rev. 20:11-15).  This would in and of itself include all ungodly sinners both then and now.

John 8:44 (KJV)
⁴⁴ Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This greek angelosis to English messenger translation can also be evidenced in the Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) of the Bible.  See below KJV vs. YLT respectively.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:41 (YLT)
⁴¹ Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (emphasis added)

In another one of your suggested arguments for absolute extinction of the “consciousness” as a consequence of the eternal second death in the Lake of Fire is Rev. 14:10-11, where you suggest that those who accept the “Mark of the Beast” will never punish nor will they be tormented forever and forever, with their burning smoke ascending eternally, because of the use of the greek “present tense” in some of the wording in this passage, i.e. the present tense of the greek “proskynountes” translated as “worship”. 

“The question, “Doesn’t Revelation tell us that people who take the mark of the beast will have no rest day or night?” is interesting. Yes, they will indeed have “no rest,” but when will this happen? It will be during the tribulation period while on this earth. It is important to note that in the previous verse, John wrote in the Greek future tense and refers to the Great White Throne Judgment where the lost will be tormented “in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb” on Judgment Day. This is a future event for John. The Greek tense is in the future.…The apostle John writes this word “proskuneo” (worship/bowing) in the Greek present tense. The present tense is the tense he chooses to use to describe the rest of the events of Revelation that occur on the earth. So this must be while on earth since it is in the same Greek tense. Look at verse 9 in which the unsaved “worship” (also in the Greek present tense) the beast “and receive his mark… The “no resting day or night” occurs while they are “bowing” and “worshipping” (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16)…”

The Biblical scholars who translated the Bible knew that this verse and word "worship" was pointing towards a future event and not to a present event.  In the greek language this is called a “futuristic present” and the vast majority of translators, in turn translated it as “worship” and not the present tense “worshiping”, as the Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) does.  This same type of futuristic present, is used often in prophecies.  For example, in Matt. 26:2 two days prior to the final Passover Jesus reveals to His disciples, “The Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified”, and this event while expressed in the present tense would not happen until later in that week.   Meanwhile, Jn. 14:1-3 (“I will come” gr. erchomai  - literally “am coming”); Jn. 4:25 (“Messiah is coming”); and Mk. 10:33 (“I am going up to Jerusalem”) is clearly evidenced in these cited passages.  So your argument of the Rev. 14:11 “present tense” “worshipping” implying then that the “having no rest day nor night” occurs here on earth is incorrect because this event takes place post Great White Throne Judgment when the ungodly will be judged and cast in the eternal Lake of Fire – “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,.” (Jn. 14:11).  Thus, there is ample literal proof where there is smoke and fire there must equally be fuel for that fire, hence eternally torched and tormented sinners.  Therefore, the greek present tense used here is simply nothing more than a greek “futuristic present” that describes a future event and provides no traction for the argument of an “earthly” Rev. 14:11 worshipping.

Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV)
¹⁰ The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
¹¹ And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Your last argument that I will address is regarding Rev. 20:10 where your declare as cited below that the “Beast and the False Prophet” are both “evil spirits” (demonic fallen angels).  While this affords some gravity of evidence it is not entirely provable.

Revelation 19:20 (KJV)
²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

“Adherents of eternal torture often cite the above verse, Revelation 20:10, to support their view by suggesting that “the beast and the false prophet” are human beings and this passage shows that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Their suggestion is that “the beast” refers to the antichrist and the false prophet is his prophetic cohort. Well, what does the rightly-divided Word of God teach on the matter? The antichrist is indeed a human being and is described in Scripture as “the man doomed to destruction” (2 Thessalonians 2:3). However, “the beast” from Revelation 19:20 and 20:10 is not referring to this man, but to the evil spirit that possessed him. This is clear because the Bible plainly says that the beast originated from the Abyss (Revelation 11:7 & 17:8). “The Abyss,” according to Scripture, is the furnace-like pit where evil spirits are imprisoned, not human beings (see Luke 8:31, Revelation 9:1-2 and 20:1-3). I can therefore assure you that “the man doomed to destruction” from 2 Thessalonians 2:3 did not originate from the Abyss, but from his mother’s womb! Likewise, the false prophet is referred to as “another beast” (13:11-17, 16:13 & 19:20). The Greek for “another” here is allos (AL-los), which means “another of the same kind.” Therefore the “false prophet” is an evil spirit that originated from the Abyss as well...”

Therefore, while it may be true that at the onset of the Great Tribulation the beast that rises from the Abyss is indeed an evil spirit, because human beings do not ascend from the Bottomless Pit, this demonic creature could actually be none other than the fallen angelic king of the abyss Abaddon/Apollyon/(Adonikam – lord of rising) himself (Rev. 9:11 & Ezr. 2:13).  He is the angelic demon that could actually be the beast that “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and goes into destruction” (Rev. 17:8, 11).  That being said, this however in no way substantiates as fact that the second beast (Rev. 13:11-17, 16:13 & 19:20) which rises out of the earth is actually another beast of the “exact” same kind, hence an evil spirit just as the first beast as you purport.  You suggest as your partial proof that “The Greek for “another” here is allos (AL-los), which means “another of the same kind…”.  While your source for this definition “another of the same kind” comes from biblehub.com under the “Helps Word-studies for 243 allos”, you only post the first part of their supplied word meaning while leaving off the second but equally applicable meaning of, “another of a similar type”.  Nonetheless, the sameness/similarity of this said demonic creature is that they are both revealed in Scripture as “beasts” and NOT as two individual demonic evil spirits (fallen angels), that must be inferred or extropolated.  In additional support for your notion that the second beast false prophet is indeed an evil spirit and not a mortal human, you cite Rev. 16:13 suggesting that the unclean spirit that comes out of the mouth of the false prophet mandates that he too (the false prophet) must be of the same type of beast as is the Dragon Satan and the dreaded Abyss Beast.  The New Testament is replete with evidence of mortal humans being possessed by evil spirits and for that matter many speak lies on their behalf, (doctrines of devils)  i.e. 1 Jn. 4:1 and 1 Tim. 4:1-2

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
¹ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (KJV)
¹ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
² Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Thus, your above/below stated Rev. 13: 11-17 argument for an evil spirit (fallen angel) “false prophet” is a poverty of meaningful evidence for such a claim.

“For further proof that the beast and the false prophet are evil spirits and not human beings, consider Revelation 16:13: “Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon [satan]; out of the mouth of the beast; and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” Notice that the beast and the false prophet are spoken of on par with the devil himself; this signifies that they are evil spirits of the highest ranking, not human beings; in fact, they may be separate manifestations of satan.[26] Secondly, notice that evil spirits come out of the mouth of the beast and false prophet just as they come out of the mouth of the devil…”

Revelation 16:13 (KJV)
¹³ And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

As such, if the false prophet is indeed a mortal man referred to in Rev. 20:10 he will have been frying and toasting in the eternal Lake of Fire for some 1000 years by the time the Devil Satan takes his turn in the tormenting flames without end.  This most certainly smacks the Annihilationist and Destructionist claim for “absolute extinction” square in the face.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
¹⁰ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In closing, “IF” the Annihilationist and Destructionist are going to ever be able to substantiate their “absolute obliteration and extinction of being” theological theory (and this is being generous) they must Scripturally and scientifically prove that “matter, presence and existence” in all reality can be made to become absolutely extinct (eternal nothingness).  I can confidently attest that their argument of “absolute destruction and extinction” will prove to be a most uncomfortable and abrasive mountain for them to die on. 

One of the best supporting Scriptural evidences for a literal, punishing, tormenting, eternity in a Lake of Fire for resurrected sinners is Matt. 25:46, which reads as follows:

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It must be noted that the greek word “aionion” translated as “eternal” in this particular passage is identically used twice as a positive-negative parallel relationship for the “duration of time” that the ungodly vs. the righteous will literally experience at each of their described final eternal destinations subsequent their individual judgments.  If it is then true for one Matt. 25:46 “eternal” event then it must be equally true for the other “eternal” event as well – hence eternal punishment vs. eternal life, respectively .

Finally, as stated before, there is NO such evidence that can begin to gender support for the nonsense notion insisted upon by the Annihilationist and Destructionist that offers direct Scriptural proof, not “inferences” nor “in my opinion” (IMO’s) that  “absolute obliteration and extinction of being”  has ever been or ever will practiced by God.

In Jesus,

Barney